Obviously we're all potentially massively POV, we'd all be pathetic push-overs otherwise (ooooh POV), but I'm trying my best to be as NPOV within the article as passion allows. If that's perceived as negative because it insults some fragile sense ego in someone who's spent many years and thousands of dollars cultivating a completely false view of themselves as all-conquering heroes then that's their problem, not the articles. I don't see anything there about those choosing not to, other than the fact they're choosing to play less extreme games.
Regardless, you'll notice in my quotes I used the word "relatively" and said " those looking to play permadeath heighten their experience". Maybe these facts are just so obvious that they don't need stating though. Nor would I argue that these people were in fact being a hell of a lot braver than chess players. I wouldn't argue with a claim on that page that said basejumpers paid more attention to safety than those involved in a sport that didn't have the slightest chance of death either. I wouldn't argue with an article on basejumping that said it was a relatively extreme sport that provides a relatively deep spiritual or heightened emotional experience. Alan De Smet | Talk 00:27, 21 February 2006 (UTC) Permadeath RPGs are just relatively extreme gaming, with all the depth of experience that entails - certainly more so than the threat of death in non-pd games which this article needs to namecheck in order to give it a frame of reference. I'm going to resist a major edit right at this moment I'd like to know your thoughts before I dive in with any non-trivial changes. There is a very active debate about the merits and flaws of permadeath and I don't think the article conveys that terrible well. There is a condescending tone toward the anti-permadeath side. I definately feel that anti-permadeath players and designers are portrayed as somehow lesser. For example, suggesting that lack of permadeath is "a relatively shallow depth of experience" and that ".those looking to play under the shadow of permadeath recognise that these consequences heighten their experience with their character while they're alive." The article comes across very pro-permadeath. You've added statements that are more opinion than fact.
Newsmare 06:02, 19 February 2006 (UTC) I think you're straying pretty far from a NPOV. I'm not going anywhere and it'll help strengthen the article in the long run, even if I feel that some relevant stuff gets lopped off in the struggle. Alan De Smet | Talk 01:50, 19 February 2006 (UTC) I have touched a little on the psychology of pd vs non-pd gamers in my last edit - mostly as a way to make your "some say" point and counter point additions flow a little better. A discussion of move from "simulation" MMORPGs to "gamey" MMORPGs is interesting, but more of a topic for MMORPG than poor little permadeath. For example Ultima Online was totally off topic as it never featured permadeath. While some discussion is clearly relevant (permadeath is something typically associated with hardcore players while being against permadeath is typically more "mainstream"), it really went off topic.
I pulled out some of the discussion of hardcore gamers.
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